Fake Koala

Hi all

Thought I’d share my recent experience. I bought a 2015 Silver Koala off eBay for £20. It arrived in a capsule in perfect condition. The seller has over 150 positive feedbacks.

I decided to test it using the Ping Coin Android app. It did not register. So I tried the ping test on the Apple Coin Tester app and again it was not recognised. The coin does have a nice ring to it. I used a magnet and it behaved properly. I weighed it, and it was correct. I then compared it to my 2022 Koala and it was smaller. So I checked with callipers and it was 39.8mm instead of 40.6mm.

I then found a website called fakebullion.com and the 2015 Koala is on there. The fake is silver plated brass. The feet are matt instead of polished and the queen’s neckline is too pointy. Same as mine. I have a fake. Photos attached with circles to mark the fake traits.




So I contacted the seller and he was horrified and refunded me straight away. I will post it back to him. He thought he had bought a genuine coin. So no more eBay for me! I’ll stick to Martin at the SilverTrader! And I really recommend those ping apps! They actually work!

That's a salutary tale @ArcaneCollector . I was going to advise you that the coin was possibly a genuine Drop Bear, minted in amazingly small quantities for the not terribly discerning collector, but you probably wouldn't believe me. It was good that your seller was as horrified as you, and that you got your money back.
I wouldn't altogether dismiss eBay though. A number of established dealers sell there (I first came across Martin on eBay), although their prices are usually higher than on their own websites. Some (not many, admittedly) dealers don't have their own websites and sell exclusively on eBay, presumably having balanced cost and convenience. If you ever get into collecting rounds from the various US private mints (as I have) eBay is essentially your only source in the UK as the mints tend either not to ship internationally or to do so only at exorbitant cost. There is the odd dealer over here who carries a few now and again, but that's about all.
As a buyer, I believe it may also be easier to get your money back through eBay than a direct sale - see your Wilted Chard post - but it is a case of buyer beware.

The Cat's Mother wrote:That's a salutary tale  @ArcaneCollector . I was going to advise you that the coin was possibly a genuine Drop Bear, minted in amazingly small quantities for the not terribly discerning collector, but you probably wouldn't believe me. It was good that your seller was as horrified as you, and that you got your money back.
I wouldn't altogether dismiss eBay though. A number of established dealers sell there (I first came across Martin on eBay), although their prices are usually higher than on their own websites. Some (not many, admittedly) dealers don't have their own websites and sell exclusively on eBay, presumably having balanced cost and convenience. If you ever get into collecting rounds from the various US private mints (as I have) eBay is essentially your only source in the UK as the mints tend either not to ship internationally or to do so only at exorbitant cost. There is the odd dealer over here who carries a few now and again, but that's about all.
As a buyer, I believe it may also be easier to get your money back through eBay than a direct sale - see your Wilted Chard post - but it is a case of buyer beware.

@The Cat's Mother you make valid points! The trick is to find the dealers on eBay. We need a list of trusted eBay dealers!

I wish you would have decided to keep it. I go on hunts especially around Ebay. As ebay does not give a monkeys back side about fakes despite there policy and procedures. I am on a Ebay group which monitors fakes. 

I buy them.... check them and then report them... Long story, I always get refunded and the seller NEVER gets back the fakes. 

I look for the obvious fakes as I am not trying to con anyone out of a sale... but NEVER send fakes back. Get a crime number and cover yourself. You do not want these back in circulation.

@The Cat's Mother you make valid points! The trick is to find the dealers on eBay. We need a list of trusted eBay dealers!

Yes @ArcaneCollector , that would be a good thing to have. There are several that I happily use, mainly in the US (and there have been difficulties with buying bullion from the US on eBay, although these seem to be easing if my recent, albeit limited, experience is to go by). A quick, not exclusive list, and I have left out the sellers with a website (except in two cases):
alohak_20
anstonsilver
bequet (has a website, J P Verdavoir)
bergy95coins
brixton249 (UK seller)
micro_mintage_silver_silvershield (has a website Micro Mintage Silver)
okkopan
silverbrothers
silvergirl555
silverguyzz
1believerinchrist

Give me a few days and I'll try to get links to the sites.

@The Cat's Mother you are an absolute legend! Thanks so much, I will save those sellers in my eBay account.

ArcaneCollector wrote: @The Cat's Mother you are an absolute legend! Thanks so much, I will save those sellers in my eBay account.

Can you do that without the links? It would save me a job if you can.

The Cat's Mother wrote:

ArcaneCollector wrote: @The Cat's Mother you are an absolute legend! Thanks so much, I will save those sellers in my eBay account.

Can you do that without the links? It would save me a job if you can.

Yes you can search for a seller in the same way that you search for an item. Silverguyzz has some awesome looking coins! I found one of Donald Trump! Sweet!

Whatever floats your boat!
Silverguyzz also lists some items priced in sterling with sterling postage (at a reasonable rate), which means no extra transaction fee. It pays to look at all his listings of the same item. It also helps if you're able to do basic maths, which I'm sure you can. Just mention my name and they'll probably charge you double.

The Cat's Mother wrote:Whatever floats your boat!
Silverguyzz also lists some items priced in sterling with sterling postage (at a reasonable rate), which means no extra transaction fee. It pays to look at all his listings of the same item. It also helps if you're able to do basic maths, which I'm sure you can. Just mention my name and they'll probably charge you double.

Sweet! I love deals such as “buy two get one”.

I thought you were more into the real rarities like the Zimbabwean Roo.  I can just imagine you admiring it while sipping a glass, or two, of Kanga Rouge.    

Bringing this post back to life. 


Watch out for todays video. 

you guessed it...   These have been making the rounds.

Admin wrote:Bringing this post back to life. 


Watch out for todays video. 

you guessed it...   These have been making the rounds.

I can spot the fakes on eBay. They pointy end of the neckline of the Queen is the giveaway.

ArcaneCollector wrote:

Admin wrote:Bringing this post back to life. 


Watch out for todays video. 

you guessed it...   These have been making the rounds.

I can spot the fakes on eBay. They pointy end of the neckline of the Queen is the giveaway.

I couldnt really see the Feet issue, but the necks on previous Fakes I have shown are scary. 

Anyway I have done a video on this coin. I am looking for another 2015 Koala for my FAKE collection FYI. 

But I will be showing it shortly. I am just finishing some editing. 

Can you guess what is was made up of?

Admin wrote:

ArcaneCollector wrote:

Admin wrote:Bringing this post back to life. 


Watch out for todays video. 

you guessed it...   These have been making the rounds.

I can spot the fakes on eBay. They pointy end of the neckline of the Queen is the giveaway.

I couldnt really see the Feet issue, but the necks on previous Fakes I have shown are scary. 

Anyway I have done a video on this coin. I am looking for another 2015 Koala for my FAKE collection FYI. 

But I will be showing it shortly. I am just finishing some editing. 

Can you guess what is was made up of?

I guess non magnetic silver plated brass or tungsten.

Spot on, Tungsten with Brass, then Copper plated so that they could Silver plate over that. 

Scary the amount of work to get them to be nearly identical 

Yikes.

I loved that video (for exposing, not because it’s a fake!) and it reminds me of the 1 fake I purchased from an auction who after lots of protest finally gave me a refund.
I won’t expose the auction house as I told them if they refunded me I would keep it quiet although I will say they are based in south Cheshire/north Staffordshire and have sold fakes since despite emailing them requesting they test the coins.
They seem to think not listing the coin as silver is somehow legal protection!
The main coins that where fakes are USA eagles and Canadian dollars, I think the one I purchased was a 1999 Canadian dollar but I wouldn’t be certain as it was a few years ago.

I wanted to add, I was amazed at the effort in your fake Koala by the fraudster.
4x layers of different metals shows you the efforts they will take to fake coins.

SanMarino wrote:I wanted to add, I was amazed at the effort in your fake Koala by the fraudster.
4x layers of different metals shows you the efforts they will take to fake coins.

Which means it must be financially worthwhile! If they mass produce those fakes, I wonder how much each one costs them? Around 20 times less than they sell them for?

I was talking to a friend about COST and how cheap these are being made for. They are really only costing 10 -20 pence each. 

And I know I can buy direct from a few icky suppliers in China for .50- .70p per coin. 

If I sold them for 5 or 10 pounds... I am making a killing.  And it is easy to see why people on FleaBay do this.

I have bought hundreds of coins and medals off eBay.
While most sellers are totally genuine, it only takes a few rotten apples to spoil the reputation of that site.
Fortunately all my transactions go through PayPal, and every time I have received a fake and submitted a return request, eBay has issued me with a prepaid return label within 24 hours.

Sometimes coins are not fake as proofs can be made in several different compositions.
But I have also received several genuine nickel items that were passed off as their silver counterpart.

I know of some sellers who sell 1oz .999 silver bullion eagles and maple leafs as cheap as £4 each, at a time when spot price is £23 to £24, so this clearly looks suspicious.
Most of the time I try to buy items with a COA, although that can not be fully relied on, as COAs are so easy to duplicate and genuine ones are even available to buy without the coins.
After a worrying start to silver buying, I decided to learn everything i could about identifying genuine items, as I was worried I could be unknowingly buying fakes.
After hundreds of hours research and crafting, I now feel I have the knowledge and tools to test silver coins, without physically damaging them with files or acids.  

An XRF hand scanner is probably the most desirable tool for a coin dealer, but sadly they cost £40,000 and upwards.
But even these costly devices can be fooled. Here is a link to a demonstration, where half way through an XRF machine passes 3 x 1oz gold coins as being genuine and worth £5400 , when in fact they are FAKE. £40,000 XRF machine fooled by fake gold coins
Some collectors invest in a SigmaPro but £2500 can still be a large percentage of a collection's value, especially when the collector is starting out.  


With nothing on the market available for the new collector, I did my research and created my own tests.
Using the spreadsheets I have compiled, I can now easily "calculate" the density of the item in question.
Every element has its own specific density and for silver it is 10.49g/cm3.
So with my spreadsheet tables and a modified pair of plastic vernier calipers, I can now quickly say if a coin is "LIKELY" to be genuine or not.
The reason I say likely, is because it is theoretically possible to duplicate a 10.49g/cm3 density by mixing 2 or more metals together.
However  . . . while it is possible to fake its density and it is also possible to fake its ultrasonic transmission speed, it is NOT possible to fake BOTH at the same time. So by checking the coin with an ultrasonic thickness detector as well as against its density it is possible to confirm a coin to be genuine silver, at a fraction of the cost of either a Sigma or XRF machine. To use an ultrasonic thickness tester, you also need, both a set of plastic tipped calipers/micrometer, plus a list of sound velocity wavelengths of various metals.
(silver is 3,650m/s). Plus you will need the patience to read the manual, as they are often poorly translated from Chinese.  

For even greater accuracy, I have now constructed "Add Ons" to sets of standard precision scales, to convert them into affordable "Densitometers" which can provide a coins density within a minute.    
My first prototype (first pic below) was using a foldable pocket set of scales, so could only handle coins up to crown size.
My latest vesion (pics 2 onwards below) is able to handle any size coin or ingot up to 10 troy ounces in size.      


To check a coins density, measure it's "Weight Loss in Distilled Water" to obtain it's "Displacement Volume".
(as 1g of distilled water = 1cm3)
Then you divide this volume into the coins "Free-Air Weight" to get it's density.

What a fantastic article, thanks for sharing! Whilst some people laugh at it, the ping test app is also another line of evidence. It has been 100% accurate for me thus far. And you can also do the magnet slide test, but it’s possible for fraudsters to get around this. I think it comes with experience of handling the coins. You can soon tell a fake if it’s a regular bullion coin such as a Maple or Brit. It’s more difficult for Koalas etc that have a new design every year. Your density tests are fantastic, especially for a nerd like me!

Grigsi wrote:I have bought hundreds of coins and medals off eBay.
While most sellers are totally genuine, it only takes a few rotten apples to spoil the reputation of that site.
Fortunately all my transactions go through PayPal, and every time I have received a fake and submitted a return request, eBay has issued me with a prepaid return label within 24 hours.

Sometimes coins are not fake as proofs can be made in several different compositions.
But I have also received several genuine nickel items that were passed off as their silver counterpart.

I know of some sellers who sell 1oz .999 silver bullion eagles and maple leafs as cheap as £4 each, at a time when spot price is £23 to £24, so this clearly looks suspicious.
Most of the time I try to buy items with a COA, although that can not be fully relied on, as COAs are so easy to duplicate and genuine ones are even available to buy without the coins.
After a worrying start to silver buying, I decided to learn everything i could about identifying genuine items, as I was worried I could be unknowingly buying fakes.
After hundreds of hours research and crafting, I now feel I have the knowledge and tools to test silver coins, without physically damaging them with files or acids.  

An XRF hand scanner is probably the most desirable tool for a coin dealer, but sadly they cost £40,000 and upwards.
But even these costly devices can be fooled. Here is a link to a demonstration, where half way through an XRF machine passes 3 x 1oz gold coins as being genuine and worth £5400 , when in fact they are FAKE. £40,000 XRF machine fooled by fake gold coins
Some collectors invest in a SigmaPro but £2500 can still be a large percentage of a collection's value, especially when the collector is starting out.  


With nothing on the market available for the new collector, I did my research and created my own tests.
Using the spreadsheets I have compiled, I can now easily "calculate" the density of the item in question.
Every element has its own specific density and for silver it is 10.49g/cm3.
So with my spreadsheet tables and a modified pair of plastic vernier calipers, I can now quickly say if a coin is "LIKELY" to be genuine or not.
The reason I say likely, is because it is theoretically possible to duplicate a 10.49g/cm3 density by mixing 2 or more metals together.
However  . . . while it is possible to fake its density and it is also possible to fake its ultrasonic transmission speed, it is NOT possible to fake BOTH at the same time. So by checking the coin with an ultrasonic thickness detector as well as against its density it is possible to confirm a coin to be genuine silver, at a fraction of the cost of either a Sigma or XRF machine. To use an ultrasonic thickness tester, you also need, both a set of plastic tipped calipers/micrometer, plus a list of sound velocity wavelengths of various metals.
(silver is 3,650m/s). Plus you will need the patience to read the manual, as they are often poorly translated from Chinese.  

For even greater accuracy, I have now constructed "Add Ons" to sets of standard precision scales, to convert them into affordable "Densitometers" which can provide a coins density within a minute.    
My first prototype (first pic below) was using a foldable pocket set of scales, so could only handle coins up to crown size.
My latest vesion (pics 2 onwards below) is able to handle any size coin or ingot up to 10 troy ounces in size.      


To check a coins density, measure it's "Weight Loss in Distilled Water" to obtain it's "Displacement Volume".
(as 1g of distilled water = 1cm3)
Then you divide this volume into the coins "Free-Air Weight" to get it's density.

Just another point to add, but first well stated and very well written.

The Density test can only be faked if you are not considering the dimensions of the coin or round. These are usually published by the manufacture. So you would need the correct size or otherwise it might be fooled.

Also I still stand by the option of saying the " ping test " loved by so many is supposed to be for for 90% silver. Doing it on any collectable coin or round is foolish as your damaging it.

Sigma and other machines are GREAT but......... can be fooled and also a XRF if not calibrated properly can also give false results.

Having my work go through the Edinburgh assay office they pick one out of 10 pieces at times.. sometimes less like 1 out of 20 to do a drill test and then actually analyse the silver collected.

That was a very interesting post @Grigsi . Like you, I buy quite a lot from eBay mainly because I collect Silver Shield and Intaglio rounds that are almost impossible to get hold of any other way. I have a number of sellers who I trust, and there are a lot of honest sellers on eBay (don't forget Martin Silvertrader used to do so and he is a diamond). Other than that I buy from established dealers from their own websites, and don't touch any seller based in China. The other watchword, which applies to more than silver, is that if it looks too good to be true then it probably isn't true.
I do use a magnet test though.

ArcaneCollector wrote:What a fantastic article, thanks for sharing! Whilst some people laugh at it, the ping test app is also another line of evidence. It has been 100% accurate for me thus far. And you can also do the magnet slide test, but it’s possible for fraudsters to get around this. I think it comes with experience of handling the coins. You can soon tell a fake if it’s a regular bullion coin such as a Maple or Brit. It’s more difficult for Koalas etc that have a new design every year. Your density tests are fantastic, especially for a nerd like me!

The Pingcoin app is brilliant if you are a collector of only bullion coins, as the database is extremely limited. I like this app despite it should not to be relied on, since several coins of varying compositions can have similar resonating frequences. It is very good as a "Filter" to say since it has passed this test, it is now worth spending more time progressing into more in depth procedures.

Sadly for me, while I am a bullion collector, bullion coinage probably makes up less than 1% of my silver collection, so I would need an app that covers the other 99% of my collection.
I found only one app to date that allows you to manually enter the data parameters to cover a wider range of coins. It is the "Precious Coin Tester" app, which seems to work well on its included bullion database. But in order to use the manual parameter feature, you need to commit to a £36 per year subscription, which could be better spent towards a more accurate density meter.

I hope there will be more new apps sprouting up that will provide a much larger database or manual customisation input. Unfortunately these types of apps are moving towards the "Subscription Only" model in order to build life-long, growing revenue streams for themselves.

If a better app for purchasing does not come along, I might even ask my daughter to make the time to create one, since she has a PhD in physics and is currently working as a programmer, designing and creating AI software.